Untergang - RELEASED!

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serpens
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Untergang - RELEASED!

Post by serpens »

Hello! After months of struggle, self-sabotage, games of jealousy, explosive ragequits, recriminations and generally bungling around without a clue, we - Team Straycats - are finally ready to give you our mod...
UNTERGANG

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Over the course of nineteen maps you will immerse yourself in a dynamic, involving storyline with high stakes and great consequences. We have preserved the atmosphere of the original game, but with new graphics and coding features in a thematically consistent mix of old and new. Know that this mod comes straight from our hearts, we have put our souls and passion into this work. We hope it shows - both individually and as a team.

As usual, you will play the role of B.J. Blazkowicz, the best secret operative the Allies have in this war. A hardened killer working for a good cause. And now the circumstances are exceptional: after Hitler was killed by your own hand in 1943, the nascent Himmler administration has signed an uneasy truce with the United States and focused their attention entirely on the Eastern Front, all part of the plan to bring about the downfall of the two totalitarian giants. But Hitler's old lackeys still haven't accepted defeat and are planning to assassinate Himmler, potentially throwing the war into total chaos once again. You're going in, this time not to kill the head of an enemy state, but to save him! See the readme for full introduction and experience the flowing story in gameplay.
But wait, who exactly made this? Introducing the members of Team Straycats, current or former. Drumroll...

Aryan_Wolf3D! (*cheers from the audience*)
Atina! (*cheers largely subside*)
Nep (known here as ReddimusVonAggrevatii)! (*consternation in the stands*)
Nexion! (*dead silence*)
serpens! (*booooooooo*)
Wolf3DGuy! (*everyone leaves*)

Of course there are external credits too; you can find a detailed list in the included readme file.

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And since this is basically a Christmas gift from all of us, here's a song to top everything off...

In the twelfth day of Christmas my true love gave to me
Twelve SS in one room
Eleven mazes
Ten seconds of par time
Nine and ninety amo
Eight Discord pings
Seven out of ten
Six Neptune outfits
Five wallflowers
Four erect columns
Three gay Canadians
Two keys behind pushwalls
And a rabbit in the dark

Merry Christmas!

(press TAB+X if you get stuck...)
Last edited by serpens on Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Tris
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Post by Tris »

Love the title screen!
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Untergang - RELEASED!

Post by Wolf3DGuy »

Such a troll mod by a bunch of toxic trolls, not rewarding, not fun. Worst mod of the year!

JUST AVOID THIS!

I REPEAT, JUST... AVOID... THIS... DO... NOT... DOWNLOAD... THIS!

I'd ban the ones who participated in this! :-( :cry: :tdown:

Probably it's worth your time if AstroCreep ports this to ECWolf, but this is not 100% sure.
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Post by gerolf »

Wolf3DGuy must not have any Christmas spirit or someone ate his last can of who-hash. This is by far the greatest release of 2020. It's going to be incredibly hard to top this one off next year, folks. My only complaint is on level 1. There's a room with only one puppy but he's got several dog bowls of his own. Is this dog a food hoarder? All in all, a very challenging set that will give a good pump to all of your veins.
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Post by Tricob »

As far as I've gotten (which is not even beating Level One), the challenge and strategy is there, but aside from restoring your health and weapons, I'm not finding a great deal of rewards for how much toil and trouble you go through to survive the harder areas. It reminds me of Episode 2 of Heretic or all of The Nocturnal Missions; it's less about discovery and more about survival. Don't get me wrong - this release is going to make a lot of people happy. But its tedious use of Guard Blockers and lack of distinct environments keep it from really sticking with me. A bit more treasure in these maps really would've helped.
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Untergang - RELEASED!

Post by wolf3d4all »

I'm at level 3 now, and I don't want to spoil anything for others, but I've experienced quite some surprises so far.
Let's just say that if you don't play this, you'll be missing a lot of fun.

Do yourself a favor and download this.
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Post by serpens »

Tricob wrote:As far as I've gotten (which is not even beating Level One), the challenge and strategy is there, but aside from restoring your health and weapons, I'm not finding a great deal of rewards for how much toil and trouble you go through to survive the harder areas. It reminds me of Episode 2 of Heretic or all of The Nocturnal Missions; it's less about discovery and more about survival. Don't get me wrong - this release is going to make a lot of people happy. But its tedious use of Guard Blockers and lack of distinct environments keep it from really sticking with me. A bit more treasure in these maps really would've helped.
I tend to use treasure sparingly because too much of it causes inflation and it loses its value. Don't worry, though, multiple mappers were involved in this project and later maps have a significantly different flow to them. Don't give up just yet.
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Post by linuxwolf »

I found it hard to progress through the first room or two in level 1. If the level design was a bit more interesting I would have tried harder. I think the most impressive thing about the project is the title screen.
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Post by serpens »

linuxwolf wrote:I found it hard to progress through the first room or two in level 1. If the level design was a bit more interesting I would have tried harder. I think the most impressive thing about the project is the title screen.
Somewhat disappointing to hear. Did you give up on the vanilla game after two rooms as well?
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Post by linuxwolf »

Its disappointing for me as well. I know you're capable of so much more than this.

I don't think comparing this to the original game is something you want to do.
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Post by doomjedi »

Map 1 was very hard, and it was "cheap" kind of hard - using many-guards start and alot of open spaces/"column-type" scenery (tons of directions to be shot from - at all times) instead on relying on clever traps and smarter guard placing. Overall surviving that map was not a matter of skill, but dumb luck mixed with many saves.

Map 2 was just a pun/coding showcase AFAIR. Nice as Xmas fun.

Will keep playing I guess...
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Post by Atina »

Difficulty of first level was already tuned down ^^'

This is more for skilled die hard Wolf fans ><'
"Nexion and Atina are one in the same. Set apart by time and space, but they'll be one again" - WolferCooker (11/10/2010)
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Post by Tricob »

serpens wrote:
linuxwolf wrote:I found it hard to progress through the first room or two in level 1. If the level design was a bit more interesting I would have tried harder. I think the most impressive thing about the project is the title screen.
Somewhat disappointing to hear. Did you give up on the vanilla game after two rooms as well?
I have to agree with Linuxwolf in that comparing it to the original isn't really the best move, but for different reasons. Wolf3D E1L1 didn't always look good, but the mapper took the time to build things up in numerous areas. This is where the "discovery" approach comes in. It introduced one environment, kept combat simple, and let things grow from there. Nothing about this mod's first map is gradual. It felt like I started off a ten-level mod on Level 8, and the game wouldn't allow me to go back. And again, the way the Guard Blockers are mapped out make some areas more tedious to go through than they ought to be. The best room of this map is that one that's more or less shaped like a "C", it has a spear rack, and it has at least one secret area. This area works as well as it does because it focuses more on creating an atmosphere and environment. It isn't just combat in areas with lots of halls and nothing else.
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Post by serpens »

Tricob wrote: I have to agree with Linuxwolf in that comparing it to the original isn't really the best move, but for different reasons. Wolf3D E1L1 didn't always look good, but the mapper took the time to build things up in numerous areas. This is where the "discovery" approach comes in. It introduced one environment, kept combat simple, and let things grow from there. Nothing about this mod's first map is gradual. It felt like I started off a ten-level mod on Level 8, and the game wouldn't allow me to go back. And again, the way the Guard Blockers are mapped out make some areas more tedious to go through than they ought to be. The best room of this map is that one that's more or less shaped like a "C", it has a spear rack, and it has at least one secret area. This area works as well as it does because it focuses more on creating an atmosphere and environment. It isn't just combat in areas with lots of halls and nothing else.
I think what we have here is a difference in approach that probably can't be reconciled. Which is fine. But I still need to note that no matter what what game or mod I used in the earlier comparison, making the judgement based on incomplete knowledge of the first two rooms is rather... exceptional.
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Post by Tricob »

serpens wrote:I think what we have here is a difference in approach that probably can't be reconciled. Which is fine. But I still need to note that no matter what what game or mod I used in the earlier comparison, making the judgement based on incomplete knowledge of the first two rooms is rather... exceptional.
Agreed. :)
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Post by gerolf »

Guest03ca

Post by Guest03ca »

@gerolf Nice job! :tup:
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Post by linuxwolf »

I don't want to go over this again but you've frustrated the player in level ONE by surrounding them with hitscanners from multiple vantage points. The element of "discovery" is irrelevant when the player is already dead by the time they entered the second room. This isn't just me saying this. This is almost everyone who played the mod. Thanks.
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linuxwolf wrote:This isn't just me saying this. This is almost everyone who played the mod. Thanks.
No, at present it IS just you and just YOUR opinion. If others don't like it, then let them say so.
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Post by gerolf »

Pretty sure ALL guards of Wolfenstein 3D are known as hitscan types. One-faced enemies like the bosses and Hitler ghost may have other attack modes, but the majority of attacks in the game are hitscan. I fail to see how that's the issue here. There are levels with much more enemies within them that overwhelm the player immediately with ZERO cover in other mods, but I don't see those levels receiving the same criticism very often. I was able to not only escape the room with only one guard slain, I was able to kill all the guards in the second room without taking any significant damage. I am not a very good player, but I fail to understand how this level is deemed insanely hard to the point of impossibility.
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Post by Wolf3DGuy »

Many mappacks, mods or TCs do not have difficulty spikes at all, you can see every enemy types appear right on the first level and there's lots of enemies, and yes the map is filled with hitscanners mainly because there's no other enemy types in Wolf3D, but hitscanners (except the dogs but that's not challenging now, is it?). The way you say "This is almost everyone who played the mod" is a bit of an exaggeration, I haven't seen that many people to complain about it, in fact, they found it easy enough.

I remember Spear End of Destiny's map 12 had a secret message, this message sums up this problem pretty well:
► Show Spoiler
Same applies here, but instead of bosses, you face weaker brown guards that can be killed by 1 shot.
► Show Spoiler
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Post by serpens »

For people struggling with the first two rooms, I encourage them to watch gerolf's videos for two successful approaches to the issue. And just to give some further advice, to beat the first hallway, you strafe left.
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Post by linuxwolf »

Or you can design the maps properly so we don't need to follow a guide to beat level 1. If you're determined to set the player against this many enemies at the start, consider replacing half of them with dogs so they can't open 5 doors at a time and hit you from multiple vantage points.

I think if the mod was compensating for this balance issue in some other way at the very beginning (e.g., with a nicely designed map maybe) then I would have tolerated the problem and continued playing.

Tell me when you've fixed the broken map flow in level 1 and I might re-attempt the mod.
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Post by Tricob »

linuxwolf wrote:I don't want to go over this again but you've frustrated the player in level ONE by surrounding them with hitscanners from multiple vantage points. The element of "discovery" is irrelevant when the player is already dead by the time they entered the second room. This isn't just me saying this. This is almost everyone who played the mod. Thanks.
I was able to survive simply by shooting down the first brown guard, then pointing at the doorway at an angle to take out the remaining guards until the way was clear. More tedious rather than difficult.

I did watch the videos, but what the map has to offer beyond what I've played simply makes me hate the map even more. I think it's safe to say the map gave me such a bad first impression that I'm having problems seeing anything in the level other than negative aspects. I see nothing wrong with the map's concepts; I just don't like the way they're executed. And it's gotten to the point where I just can't play this map with an open mind anymore.
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Post by serpens »

linuxwolf wrote:Or you can design the maps properly so we don't need to follow a guide to beat level 1. If you're determined to set the player against this many enemies at the start, consider replacing half of them with dogs so they can't open 5 doors at a time and hit you from multiple vantage points.

I think if the mod was compensating for this balance issue in some other way at the very beginning (e.g., with a nicely designed map maybe) then I would have tolerated the problem and continued playing.

Tell me when you've fixed the broken map flow in level 1 and I might re-attempt the mod.
Hmmm. You don't need a guide. "Go left" is not a guide. You've already seen multiple ways the entrance hallway can be easily handled and I know multiple other people, outside of the team, who breezed through the map with no foreknowledge (and liked it), so it's not a balance issue.

It's not broken map flow either. It's a design decision. I can see it's divisive and frankly, I enjoy that. The map is designed to get the player moving and under pressure right away. You either really don't like that or it's too difficult for you, likely both. Which is fine, but we're obviously not changing anything because of that.
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Post by linuxwolf »

You're obviously not taking any feedback onboard. You've made the perfect mod. Well done.
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Post by serpens »

linuxwolf wrote:You're obviously not taking any feedback onboard. You've made the perfect mod. Well done.
I'm not taking your feedback because you're hurling broad judgements after getting killed in the second room and not progressing further, which is preposterous. That's my last word here before the debate turns into something nastier.
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Post by linuxwolf »

The reason we provide feedback is to provide you opportunity to address the issues. I'm not making any broad judgements about the mod as a whole but given you're unwilling to accept shortcomings I am concerned more about the mod than I was to start with.

I'm also confused why this debate needs to become nasty. If you'll simply accept the feedback for what it is then we can finally get somewhere. Don't take It personally.
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linuxwolf wrote:The reason we provide feedback is to provide you opportunity to address the issues.
Of course, but until that feedback is anything but "I can't kill 10 brown guards reee", then it's basically worthless and will be treated as such.
I'm not making any broad judgements about the mod as a whole...

...

I think the most impressive thing about the project is the title screen.
Uh-huh...
but given you're unwilling to accept shortcomings I am concerned more about the mod than I was to start with.
What shortcomings are you referring to, and what exactly are you concerned about?
I'm also confused why this debate needs to become nasty. If you'll simply accept the feedback for what it is then we can finally get somewhere. Don't take It personally.
Your attitude was pretty nasty in the first place, to be honest - no need to be so snarky and sarcastic because we don't agree with you.
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Post by linuxwolf »

If Serpens has anything else to say in response I'll happily listen to that, but otherwise I'm content with the feedback I've provided. Thanks everyone.